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The Martlet

UVic denied referendum on future CFS membership

Apr 08, 2010 | Volume 62 Issue 29 | 82 Comments
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Kelsey Hannan (left) and José Barrios helped organize the petition calling for a referendum on UVic’s continued membership in the CFS. The CFS has said the petition did not meet the requirements for calling a referendum.

Kelsey Hannan (left) and José Barrios helped organize the petition calling for a referendum on UVic’s continued membership in the CFS. The CFS has said the petition did not meet the requirements for calling a referendum.

Sol Kauffman

Students who organized a petition calling for a referendum on membership in the Canadian Federation of Students (CFS) plan to keep fighting, despite being told their petition didn’t meet the organization’s bylaws.

On March 30, petition organizer José Barrios received a letter from CFS National Chairperson Katherine Giroux-Bougard informing him that the petition had not met the quorum required to hold a referendum. According to CFS bylaws, members must provide signatures of 10 per cent the student population to hold a referendum on membership. While the petition Barrios submitted last fall had verified signatures representing 11.4 per cent of the membership of the UVic Students’ Society (UVSS), the letter from the CFS referenced a counter-petition that removed names off the original petition.

“My understanding is pretty limited at this point,” said UVSS Chair Veronica Harrison. “Though it’s my understanding that hundreds of students had signed the petition to remove their names from the other petition, from the petition to have a referendum question, and that made it so José’s petition didn’t meet the required quorum. We do know that approximately 3,000 members at UVic signed a petition to remain in the CFS. They said that they didn’t want to have a referendum questioning the membership. That’s a pretty large statement in itself.”

CFS National Chairperson Katherine Giroux-Bougard confirmed that the original petition did not meet the required 10 per cent because of the second petition.

“There were a number of students that requested their names be removed [from the original petition],” said Giroux-Bougard. “Taking into account both the original petition and the requests it was determined that it didn’t meet the requirement in the bylaws.”

Giroux-Bougard said the verification process used on both petitions was long and thorough, but was very straightforward for the CFS national executive.

“My understanding is we corresponded with the student society to have them facilitate in that verification process,” she said.

However, Barrios argues that the counter-petition doesn’t invalidate the original petition, and that the CFS is legally obligated to provide UVSS members with a referendum.

“We’re looking at all the possibilities,” he said. “Guelph went to court and the judge ruled in favour [of the Guelph Central Students Association (CSA)]. We’re confident that precedent is going to hold in B.C. as well.”

A counter-petition was also circulated at Guelph. However, according to CSA Communications and Corporate Affairs Commissioner Gavin Armstrong, the counter-petition was tossed out by the judge.

“The CSA argued that this counter-petition has no place in the CSA bylaws, nor did it specifically reference the original petition and therefore should not be considered,” wrote Armstrong in an email.

According to Armstrong, the judge told the CSA not to waste their breath because the counter-petition had no legal affect.

Barrios said petition organizers at UVic are already in talks with lawyers.

“We will go to court. We have to — there’s no way around it. Unfortunately the CFS left us no option,” he said.

Others agree.

“This action to deny us a referendum through a so-called counter-petition should be a wake up call as to how the CFS views UVic students,” said current UVSS Director-at-Large Kelsey Hannan, who helped to organize the petition. “When nearly every single CFS referendum across Canada results in a lawsuit, you must ask yourself this question: is it the students that are causing these court cases, or the CFS?”

However, going to court doesn’t come cheap. According to Guelph’s petition organizer Curtis Batuszkin, their legal battle to hold a referendum cost $70,000. Despite the price tag, Batuszkin feels the process was worth it.

“The students had a chance to engage in a legitimate democratic forum that would not have been possible,” he said. “The CFS did not want this referendum to take place.”

Members of the CSA will vote on their CFS membership April 7 to 9.

Hannan, who has been elected UVSS director of finance for the 2010/2011 term, is prepared to pursue a referendum in court, despite the UVSS’ $300,000 deficit.

“We will pursue it through the cheapest means necessary,” said Hannan. “The Guelph decision that the judge brought down paved the road for us in many ways.”

Hannan said that part of the problem with the CFS is how much money it can cost in legal fees to achieve a referendum.

“Why should a student who wants a democratic referendum have to have several thousand dollars in pocket?” he said. “The issue here is that the CFS throws money at referendums when they do occur without any regard for how that affects the fairness of the referendum.”

Hannan hopes to ensure a level playing field if the referendum does occur.

“It’s up to the society to make sure both sides are represented, to make sure students aren’t outspent,” he said.

How the UVSS will deal with the rejection of this petition is still largely up in the air.

“It depends what process it gets to. Right now it’s in the petitioners’ hands,” said Harrison. “I know that right now the decision is that there isn’t going to be a referendum right now. There’s no need for the student society to be involved right now.”

Chairperson elect James Coccola, who takes office May 1, sees a referendum as something the UVSS will pursue.

“If it can be shown that students want to have a referendum then it is our constitutional duty to work to facilitate that,” he said, referencing section 2a of the UVSS constitution, which reads “The purposes of the Students’ Society are to organize students on a democratic, cooperative basis in advancing students’ interests, and advancing the interests of the students’ community.”

However, Coccola says that he hopes to avoid ending up in court.

“It starts with actually talking to the CFS,” he said, adding that Harrison is the only director who’s had any contact with them in this matter. “It starts with figuring out what’s actually going on before we assume what’s going on.”

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82 Comments

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  • Andrew A April 8, 2010, 3:26 a.m.

    “My understanding is pretty limited`-Veronica Harrison

    Anyone else notice how this is the standard style of response from Veronica whenever a question CFS petition or referendum related comes up?

    I think it’s just a rumour, said Veronica Harrison (http://www.thevarsity.ca/articles/20502)

    I don't know what the petition will do to be honest.-Veronica Harrison (http://eyeontheuvss.blogspot.com/2010/01/board-rehashes-cfs09.html)

    Considering Harrison received a letter from the CFS in January asking her and the UVSS to help verify the names on both petitions her understanding should be much more than pretty limited.

  • Andrew A April 8, 2010, 3:26 a.m.

    “My understanding is pretty limited`-Veronica Harrison

    Anyone else notice how this is the standard style of response from Veronica whenever a question CFS petition or referendum related comes up?

    I think it’s just a rumour, said Veronica Harrison (http://www.thevarsity.ca/articles/20502)

    I don't know what the petition will do to be honest.-Veronica Harrison (http://eyeontheuvss.blogspot.com/2010/01/board-rehashes-cfs09.html)

    Considering Harrison received a letter from the CFS in January asking her and the UVSS to help verify the names on both petitions her understanding should be much more than pretty limited.

  • Erik April 8, 2010, 3:43 a.m.

    I've seen two articles on the Martlet about the petition failing now. Neither of them have mentioned how many valid signatures there really were on the defederation petition in the end. Where do we find this out? How do we know someone actually took the time to compare the names on both?

  • Erik April 8, 2010, 3:43 a.m.

    I've seen two articles on the Martlet about the petition failing now. Neither of them have mentioned how many valid signatures there really were on the defederation petition in the end. Where do we find this out? How do we know someone actually took the time to compare the names on both?

  • Are you being fooled? April 8, 2010, 4:46 a.m.

    Veronica claimed that there were close to 3,000 signatures in the counter petition. The fact is that the number is much closer to 2,100 valid signatures.

    Only Veronica is getting fooled by Veronica. Nobody else buys, for a second, that she has limited knowledge of the counter-petition process. She very publicly lead the counter petition on this campus; a failed attempt to to stop the democratic rights of UVic students. I wonder if she wonders if maybe that is the reason why an overwhelming majority of UVic students voted to renew the UVSS.

  • Are you being fooled? April 8, 2010, 4:46 a.m.

    Veronica claimed that there were close to 3,000 signatures in the counter petition. The fact is that the number is much closer to 2,100 valid signatures.

    Only Veronica is getting fooled by Veronica. Nobody else buys, for a second, that she has limited knowledge of the counter-petition process. She very publicly lead the counter petition on this campus; a failed attempt to to stop the democratic rights of UVic students. I wonder if she wonders if maybe that is the reason why an overwhelming majority of UVic students voted to renew the UVSS.

  • @ Are you being fooled April 8, 2010, 5:03 a.m.

    Not only that, but UVic students over a quarter of a million dollar paycheque to the CFS each year. No wonder why the CFS does not want a referendum! If I was making 300,000 dollars a year I also wouldn't want students voting on my cushy paycheque !

    It seems like Veronica Harrison is putting the interest of the CFS corporation before the interest of the UVic students.

  • @ Are you being fooled April 8, 2010, 5:03 a.m.

    Not only that, but UVic students over a quarter of a million dollar paycheque to the CFS each year. No wonder why the CFS does not want a referendum! If I was making 300,000 dollars a year I also wouldn't want students voting on my cushy paycheque !

    It seems like Veronica Harrison is putting the interest of the CFS corporation before the interest of the UVic students.

  • Krystal April 8, 2010, 5:32 a.m.

    The petitioners sent the defederation petition to the CFS a few weeks before the counter-petition was sent.

    If the petitioners knew they needed more signatures than the CFS bylaws stated, I'm sure they would have made sure they got them. You can't just go and change the rules of the game after the fact.

  • Krystal April 8, 2010, 5:32 a.m.

    The petitioners sent the defederation petition to the CFS a few weeks before the counter-petition was sent.

    If the petitioners knew they needed more signatures than the CFS bylaws stated, I'm sure they would have made sure they got them. You can't just go and change the rules of the game after the fact.

  • Darcy April 8, 2010, 11:40 a.m.

    “The issue here is that the CFS throws money at referendums when they do occur without any regard for how that affects the fairness of the referendum.”

    Yeah, it's not fair when the playing field isn't level because one side spends more money than the other side.

    And apparently the threats that the Marlet make pertaining to posts are empty, wouldn't you agree, Are you being fooled?

  • Darcy April 8, 2010, 11:40 a.m.

    “The issue here is that the CFS throws money at referendums when they do occur without any regard for how that affects the fairness of the referendum.”

    Yeah, it's not fair when the playing field isn't level because one side spends more money than the other side.

    And apparently the threats that the Marlet make pertaining to posts are empty, wouldn't you agree, Are you being fooled?

  • Malz April 8, 2010, 12:20 p.m.

    Darcy, you're such an unprincipled hack. Students asked for a referendum and they should have one.

  • Malz April 8, 2010, 12:20 p.m.

    Darcy, you're such an unprincipled hack. Students asked for a referendum and they should have one.

  • jas April 8, 2010, 3:08 p.m.

    yea, i hate it when one side spends more than than the other side... whether it is student elections or CFS referendums.. pretty hypocritical session going down by renew/team work folks... gotta love hypocrisy...

  • jas April 8, 2010, 3:08 p.m.

    yea, i hate it when one side spends more than than the other side... whether it is student elections or CFS referendums.. pretty hypocritical session going down by renew/team work folks... gotta love hypocrisy...

  • Johnson April 8, 2010, 3:23 p.m.

    I don't see the parallel. Team work disqualification has nothing to do with the CFS, so don't try to desperately attempt to merge them into one issue they are completely and entirely different.

    Team work was elected, obviously some people cannot deal with that fact.

    The CFS referendum will happen, just leave it up to the new board. They are much smarter, more organized and definitely better looking than any other board I've seen in my 3 years in University.

  • Johnson April 8, 2010, 3:23 p.m.

    I don't see the parallel. Team work disqualification has nothing to do with the CFS, so don't try to desperately attempt to merge them into one issue they are completely and entirely different.

    Team work was elected, obviously some people cannot deal with that fact.

    The CFS referendum will happen, just leave it up to the new board. They are much smarter, more organized and definitely better looking than any other board I've seen in my 3 years in University.

  • @ darcy & jas April 8, 2010, 4:43 p.m.

    Team work didn't overspend. Veronica's only evidence is that she has a feeling they might have, and that she looked up prices on the Grand & Toy website (which are inflated since Grand & Toy does not sell at wholesale prices to the general public, while team work shopped at a place that DOES sell at wholesale prices).

    But as others have said, Veronica's ridiculous accusation is irrelevant. The CFS is known for dumping a tonne of money and flying supporters in from other provinces. They are also known for suing schools to drain their money so they can't afford to fight for their freedom after they vote to leave. THAT, indeed, is an unfair playing field.

    If the students agree with you and believe in the CFS, they will vote to stay. Are you opposed to the referendum because you're scared your side will lose?

  • @ darcy & jas April 8, 2010, 4:43 p.m.

    Team work didn't overspend. Veronica's only evidence is that she has a feeling they might have, and that she looked up prices on the Grand & Toy website (which are inflated since Grand & Toy does not sell at wholesale prices to the general public, while team work shopped at a place that DOES sell at wholesale prices).

    But as others have said, Veronica's ridiculous accusation is irrelevant. The CFS is known for dumping a tonne of money and flying supporters in from other provinces. They are also known for suing schools to drain their money so they can't afford to fight for their freedom after they vote to leave. THAT, indeed, is an unfair playing field.

    If the students agree with you and believe in the CFS, they will vote to stay. Are you opposed to the referendum because you're scared your side will lose?

  • Peter April 8, 2010, 7:19 p.m.

    Typical. A gullible Martlet reporter gives 10x the space to anti-CFS young Liberals and has no critical analysis of the substance of the dispute. I guess the Martlet and the young Libs don't care about the thousands of students who don't want to waste their money on a referendum. When is the Martlet going to engage in what is known elsewhere as journalism?

  • Peter April 8, 2010, 7:19 p.m.

    Typical. A gullible Martlet reporter gives 10x the space to anti-CFS young Liberals and has no critical analysis of the substance of the dispute. I guess the Martlet and the young Libs don't care about the thousands of students who don't want to waste their money on a referendum. When is the Martlet going to engage in what is known elsewhere as journalism?

  • David Foster April 8, 2010, 10:05 p.m.

    @Peter:

    Kailey is a highly professional journalist with a great resume. The Martlet has covered the substance of the dispute very well in previous articles, which you obviously didn't bother to read.

  • David Foster April 8, 2010, 10:05 p.m.

    @Peter:

    Kailey is a highly professional journalist with a great resume. The Martlet has covered the substance of the dispute very well in previous articles, which you obviously didn't bother to read.

  • Ross April 8, 2010, 11:23 p.m.

    @@ darcy & jas but didn't they fail to provide receipts for their expenses?

  • Ross April 8, 2010, 11:23 p.m.

    @@ darcy & jas but didn't they fail to provide receipts for their expenses?

  • Andrew A April 9, 2010, 12:58 a.m.

    Peter, the reason critical analysis does not appear is because this is a news story, not an opinion piece.

    The CFS appears to have given a short packaged answer while Veronica claims to not know what's going on. It's hard to give equal coverage when one side is less open to talking.

    It's been stated numerous times in other article comments, but since you didn't get the memo, Jose and James are not young Liberals.

    Please take the time to verify your claims before you go posting vague exaggerated critiques on here.

  • Andrew A April 9, 2010, 12:58 a.m.

    Peter, the reason critical analysis does not appear is because this is a news story, not an opinion piece.

    The CFS appears to have given a short packaged answer while Veronica claims to not know what's going on. It's hard to give equal coverage when one side is less open to talking.

    It's been stated numerous times in other article comments, but since you didn't get the memo, Jose and James are not young Liberals.

    Please take the time to verify your claims before you go posting vague exaggerated critiques on here.

  • @ Ross April 9, 2010, 1:09 a.m.

    Team Work provided a detailed invoice for their printing services and tape. Chief Electoral Officer Conrad even phoned the CEO of the company to verify all the costs. They also provided receipts for t-shirts and Facebook ads. The Electoral Committee, not satisfied with the Facebook receipts, had them go take a screen shot of the advertising page.

    They have provided more proof of their campaign costs than anyone else ever has in UVSS elections.

  • @ Ross April 9, 2010, 1:09 a.m.

    Team Work provided a detailed invoice for their printing services and tape. Chief Electoral Officer Conrad even phoned the CEO of the company to verify all the costs. They also provided receipts for t-shirts and Facebook ads. The Electoral Committee, not satisfied with the Facebook receipts, had them go take a screen shot of the advertising page.

    They have provided more proof of their campaign costs than anyone else ever has in UVSS elections.

  • Jess April 9, 2010, 11:35 p.m.

    so the Martlet continues to put Kailey on reporting stories involving the CFS, despite the fact that she is very close friends and political allies with the anti-CFS gang at UVic.

    you have many other reporters, why don't you use someone less emotionally embedded in the story?

    this blatant bias is getting beyond ridiculous.

  • Jess April 9, 2010, 11:35 p.m.

    so the Martlet continues to put Kailey on reporting stories involving the CFS, despite the fact that she is very close friends and political allies with the anti-CFS gang at UVic.

    you have many other reporters, why don't you use someone less emotionally embedded in the story?

    this blatant bias is getting beyond ridiculous.

  • Mike April 10, 2010, 12:18 a.m.

    i thought overspending was on facebook. i heard teamwork declared they only spent like a fraction of what the other teams spent on facebook. can anyone tell me how much the total slate spending was on facebook ads for Student United, Renew and Team Work so we can compare them?

  • Mike April 10, 2010, 12:18 a.m.

    i thought overspending was on facebook. i heard teamwork declared they only spent like a fraction of what the other teams spent on facebook. can anyone tell me how much the total slate spending was on facebook ads for Student United, Renew and Team Work so we can compare them?

  • Kyle April 10, 2010, 3:16 a.m.

    Just out of curiosity would it be possible for the Uvic students too completely deunionize?

  • Kyle April 10, 2010, 3:16 a.m.

    Just out of curiosity would it be possible for the Uvic students too completely deunionize?

  • @ Kyle April 10, 2010, 3:38 a.m.

    i'm sure it would be possible IF this is what students wanted. good luck trying to convince a majority of students that uvss services are not worth their money.

    two weeks of purchasing lunch in the sub and a student would see a return on their union fees. here is what you pay for broken down into pennies: http://www.uvss.uvic.ca/default.aspx?PageID=1086

  • @ Kyle April 10, 2010, 3:38 a.m.

    i'm sure it would be possible IF this is what students wanted. good luck trying to convince a majority of students that uvss services are not worth their money.

    two weeks of purchasing lunch in the sub and a student would see a return on their union fees. here is what you pay for broken down into pennies: http://www.uvss.uvic.ca/default.aspx?PageID=1086

  • Kyle April 10, 2010, 3:43 a.m.

    I've actually been looking for how that money has been broken down. Thanks.

  • Kyle April 10, 2010, 3:43 a.m.

    I've actually been looking for how that money has been broken down. Thanks.

  • @Mike April 10, 2010, 8:24 a.m.

    Teamwork did indeed spend a fraction of what other slates spent on Facebook ads.

    What relevance is comparing their spending to other slates? Other slates spent more because they had more members and a larger budget. When you have less money to work with you adjust your ad settings so that you spend less.

    For what it's worth: Students United: $169.30 ($11.28/Candidate) Renew: $11.64 ($0.97/Candidate) Teamwork: $6.92 ($3.46/Candidate)

  • @Mike April 10, 2010, 8:24 a.m.

    Teamwork did indeed spend a fraction of what other slates spent on Facebook ads.

    What relevance is comparing their spending to other slates? Other slates spent more because they had more members and a larger budget. When you have less money to work with you adjust your ad settings so that you spend less.

    For what it's worth: Students United: $169.30 ($11.28/Candidate) Renew: $11.64 ($0.97/Candidate) Teamwork: $6.92 ($3.46/Candidate)

  • @ Jess April 10, 2010, 8:35 a.m.

    Jess when you make accusations of a 'blatant bias' in the future, might I suggest actually providing at least one example of this.

    Just because you disagree with what individuals quoted in an article say, doesn't make an author biased. Kailey only reports it. Don't shoot the messenger.

  • @ Jess April 10, 2010, 8:35 a.m.

    Jess when you make accusations of a 'blatant bias' in the future, might I suggest actually providing at least one example of this.

    Just because you disagree with what individuals quoted in an article say, doesn't make an author biased. Kailey only reports it. Don't shoot the messenger.

  • Jes re @ Jess April 12, 2010, 4:49 a.m.

    the whole story is framed in a bias manner. from the title onwards there is an inflammatory framing of the narrative that puts the CFS on the defence. a good writer can mask bias by providing straw men representation of one side of the article or simply by leaving important information out. this article privileges the anti-CFS friends of the writer by offering them the offensive platform, while the CFS is put on the defense.

    imagine an article in which the the anti-CFS clique was asked questions like do you feel the hundreds of signatures requesting their names be discounted from the referendum petition should not be recognized in this process? i'm not suggesting this angle be the dominant one, but offering the balance of not just targeting one side with offensive questions would help frame the issue with more equity.

    an even simpler answer is just put an alternative writer on these stories altogether. students deserve to hear more than just one perspective on these issues - especially when the one perspective is personally invested in the subject matter. variety is the spice of life after all.

  • Jes re @ Jess April 12, 2010, 4:49 a.m.

    the whole story is framed in a bias manner. from the title onwards there is an inflammatory framing of the narrative that puts the CFS on the defence. a good writer can mask bias by providing straw men representation of one side of the article or simply by leaving important information out. this article privileges the anti-CFS friends of the writer by offering them the offensive platform, while the CFS is put on the defense.

    imagine an article in which the the anti-CFS clique was asked questions like do you feel the hundreds of signatures requesting their names be discounted from the referendum petition should not be recognized in this process? i'm not suggesting this angle be the dominant one, but offering the balance of not just targeting one side with offensive questions would help frame the issue with more equity.

    an even simpler answer is just put an alternative writer on these stories altogether. students deserve to hear more than just one perspective on these issues - especially when the one perspective is personally invested in the subject matter. variety is the spice of life after all.

  • Jess April 12, 2010, 4:53 a.m.

    for the record i have my share of criticisms for organizations like the CFS, but i know there is good and bad to come with every democratic organization. what annoys me is always being subjected to the viewpoints of a vocal minority that has their friends working for the paper. that is my opinion, so please don't delete my posts like you have many others team martlet.

  • Jess April 12, 2010, 4:53 a.m.

    for the record i have my share of criticisms for organizations like the CFS, but i know there is good and bad to come with every democratic organization. what annoys me is always being subjected to the viewpoints of a vocal minority that has their friends working for the paper. that is my opinion, so please don't delete my posts like you have many others team martlet.

  • @ Jess April 12, 2010, 6:13 p.m.

    Jess, if it was a vocal minority the CFS will just have the referendum and get this over with. The fact is that we are not a minority. That is why the CFS does not want a democratic decision, that is why the CFS denied UVic students the right to have a democratic referendum.

    @ Jes do you feel the hundreds of signatures requesting their names be discounted from the referendum petition should not be recognized in this process?

    Of course I think they should be counted. That is why we should have a referendum! Everyone that signed the counter petition can vote during the referendum.

    NOW, ask yourselves: Why would the CFS deny UVic students the right to chose what to do with $300,000 dollars of their fees?

  • @ Jess April 12, 2010, 6:13 p.m.

    Jess, if it was a vocal minority the CFS will just have the referendum and get this over with. The fact is that we are not a minority. That is why the CFS does not want a democratic decision, that is why the CFS denied UVic students the right to have a democratic referendum.

    @ Jes do you feel the hundreds of signatures requesting their names be discounted from the referendum petition should not be recognized in this process?

    Of course I think they should be counted. That is why we should have a referendum! Everyone that signed the counter petition can vote during the referendum.

    NOW, ask yourselves: Why would the CFS deny UVic students the right to chose what to do with $300,000 dollars of their fees?

  • Jess April 12, 2010, 8:33 p.m.

    The fact is that we are not a minority.

    @ Jess that is your opinion and i suspect you are not revealing your name for the reason that you don't want to go on record making personal assumptions look like established information.

    most students are agnostic to the CFS and i suspect you know this. most students would admit they don't have an opinion on the matter either way. this despite Martlet's attempts to politicize the CFS and provide anti-CFS'ers a microphone.

    a referendum only opens the door for the national anti-CFS organizers to put their negative smear campaign to work pitting students against students. this is not a neutral democratic exercise. it is harmful to the strength of the student body collective.

  • Jess April 12, 2010, 8:33 p.m.

    The fact is that we are not a minority.

    @ Jess that is your opinion and i suspect you are not revealing your name for the reason that you don't want to go on record making personal assumptions look like established information.

    most students are agnostic to the CFS and i suspect you know this. most students would admit they don't have an opinion on the matter either way. this despite Martlet's attempts to politicize the CFS and provide anti-CFS'ers a microphone.

    a referendum only opens the door for the national anti-CFS organizers to put their negative smear campaign to work pitting students against students. this is not a neutral democratic exercise. it is harmful to the strength of the student body collective.

  • Jess April 12, 2010, 8:43 p.m.

    Of course I think they should be counted. That is why we should have a referendum! Everyone that signed the counter petition can vote during the referendum.

    out of interest i just looked up how the counter petition was worded and it makes it very clear that in signing one's name they are asking not to put CFS membership to question. Had i bumped into one of these canvassers i would have signed it. you are clearly misrepresenting what the counter petition represents.

    it still stands that more students signed a petition stating they do not want an expensive and divisive referendum process.

  • Jess April 12, 2010, 8:43 p.m.

    Of course I think they should be counted. That is why we should have a referendum! Everyone that signed the counter petition can vote during the referendum.

    out of interest i just looked up how the counter petition was worded and it makes it very clear that in signing one's name they are asking not to put CFS membership to question. Had i bumped into one of these canvassers i would have signed it. you are clearly misrepresenting what the counter petition represents.

    it still stands that more students signed a petition stating they do not want an expensive and divisive referendum process.

  • jess April 12, 2010, 9:02 p.m.

    NOW, ask yourselves: Why would the CFS deny UVic students the right to chose what to do with $300,000 dollars of their fees?

    again i think you are misrepresenting this issue. the sum of CFS membership dues come from a small individual contribution of $7.98 (small potatoes) that is ear marked for the CFS (or so it says in the UVSS fee breakdown). you leave the impression students can just redistribute that money into general revenues or put it back in their pocket and somehow governments will just respect student interests without a united lobby voice. i'm not familair with the fine details of UVSS finance but i don't think this is the case.

  • jess April 12, 2010, 9:02 p.m.

    NOW, ask yourselves: Why would the CFS deny UVic students the right to chose what to do with $300,000 dollars of their fees?

    again i think you are misrepresenting this issue. the sum of CFS membership dues come from a small individual contribution of $7.98 (small potatoes) that is ear marked for the CFS (or so it says in the UVSS fee breakdown). you leave the impression students can just redistribute that money into general revenues or put it back in their pocket and somehow governments will just respect student interests without a united lobby voice. i'm not familair with the fine details of UVSS finance but i don't think this is the case.

  • grandma Josephine April 12, 2010, 9:25 p.m.

    I like grapes.

  • grandma Josephine April 12, 2010, 9:25 p.m.

    I like grapes.

  • also @jess April 12, 2010, 9:44 p.m.

    Jess we all know that few students take the time to fully read what a petition they are signing entails. They assume the petitioner is being truthful about the full contents of the petition. The primary time to get signatures are while students are going in between classes, often n a hurry.

    The petitioners for the counter petition told students that they were supporting lower tuition or supporting better transit while never mentioning that their names were also being removed from the referendum petition.

  • also @jess April 12, 2010, 9:44 p.m.

    Jess we all know that few students take the time to fully read what a petition they are signing entails. They assume the petitioner is being truthful about the full contents of the petition. The primary time to get signatures are while students are going in between classes, often n a hurry.

    The petitioners for the counter petition told students that they were supporting lower tuition or supporting better transit while never mentioning that their names were also being removed from the referendum petition.

  • yet another @ Jess April 13, 2010, 8:44 a.m.

    Jess, once again you provide vague proof of the author's bias without providing examples of it. If the CFS is put on the defensive, maybe it is because a petition was collected with 11.4% of signatures of UVSS membership yet the CFS declared it to contain less than 10%. It is only natural that any author would ask the CFS to defend that conclusion.

    especially when the one perspective is personally invested in the subject matter.

    If anything Jess, it is your own writing that is biased. You slip in weasel words words like personally invested, but frankly I've never seen any real evidence of this. I have seen Kailey be accused of being both pro- and anti-CFS because of what those she interviews is quoted as saying, yet I have never seen anything to indicate she has an opinion either way on the topic of the CFS. http://www.martlet.ca/article/20771-attending-cfs-bc-agm-an-eye-opening Her coverage of the CFS-BC AGM appeared to be rather balanced to me.

  • yet another @ Jess April 13, 2010, 8:44 a.m.

    Jess, once again you provide vague proof of the author's bias without providing examples of it. If the CFS is put on the defensive, maybe it is because a petition was collected with 11.4% of signatures of UVSS membership yet the CFS declared it to contain less than 10%. It is only natural that any author would ask the CFS to defend that conclusion.

    especially when the one perspective is personally invested in the subject matter.

    If anything Jess, it is your own writing that is biased. You slip in weasel words words like personally invested, but frankly I've never seen any real evidence of this. I have seen Kailey be accused of being both pro- and anti-CFS because of what those she interviews is quoted as saying, yet I have never seen anything to indicate she has an opinion either way on the topic of the CFS. http://www.martlet.ca/article/20771-attending-cfs-bc-agm-an-eye-opening Her coverage of the CFS-BC AGM appeared to be rather balanced to me.

  • Andrew A April 13, 2010, 4:12 p.m.

    Jess, I find it odd that you refer to the UVSS membership of $7.98 as small potatoes. The past two elections there have been referendums for amounts far less than this that students have voted against. This past March students rejected the prospect of paying $2 more/semester to the UVSS board, despite our $300 000 deficit and the fact that this fee has not been raised in 17 years. Quite simply, UVic students consider paying $7.98/semester to be very significant.

    As an aside, it should be noted that UVic students never approved this $7.98 fee. The last two times we had a referendum on CFS fees, students rejected a proposal that would raise a $3.75 fee to $6 back in both 1995 and 1996. The CFS fee has gone from $3.75 to $7.98 without any referendums because the CFS bylaws stipulate that the membership fee must increase at the rate of inflation. This, however, violates the BC University Act. Because the UVSS has continued to violate the University Act, the cost of membership in the CFS is not even uniform BC. If we are all equal members, shouldn't we all pay the same fee?

  • Andrew A April 13, 2010, 4:12 p.m.

    Jess, I find it odd that you refer to the UVSS membership of $7.98 as small potatoes. The past two elections there have been referendums for amounts far less than this that students have voted against. This past March students rejected the prospect of paying $2 more/semester to the UVSS board, despite our $300 000 deficit and the fact that this fee has not been raised in 17 years. Quite simply, UVic students consider paying $7.98/semester to be very significant.

    As an aside, it should be noted that UVic students never approved this $7.98 fee. The last two times we had a referendum on CFS fees, students rejected a proposal that would raise a $3.75 fee to $6 back in both 1995 and 1996. The CFS fee has gone from $3.75 to $7.98 without any referendums because the CFS bylaws stipulate that the membership fee must increase at the rate of inflation. This, however, violates the BC University Act. Because the UVSS has continued to violate the University Act, the cost of membership in the CFS is not even uniform BC. If we are all equal members, shouldn't we all pay the same fee?

  • Tori April 14, 2010, 7:49 a.m.

    Jess, here's the difference between the original referendum petition and the counter petition:

    The referendum petition was legally binding.

    The counter petition was not legally binding.

    There is legal precedent for this in Ontario, where the courts ruled that the CFS could not deny Guelph a referendum, even though there was a counter petition there just like the one here.

    The requisite number of signatures were collected calling for a referendum, and because of this, a referendum must be called. Those are the rules of the game, whether or not the CFS likes it. Even if we assume that 90% of students on campus want to stay in the CFS, the 10% who called for a question on continued membership have the right to find that out by means of a referendum. The bylaws say so.

    Also, the counter petition had more time to collect signatures than the original petition did, since it wasn't bound by a deadline.

    A referendum is the only way we can have a fair, democratic decision, since only then will both sides be allowed to campaign and start informing the public (why we should stay and why we should leave). Currently, the no side cannot campaign because that would violate pre-campaigning rules.

    The yes side, however, can campaign under label membership education to avoid that violation.

    Clever, eh?

  • Tori April 14, 2010, 7:49 a.m.

    Jess, here's the difference between the original referendum petition and the counter petition:

    The referendum petition was legally binding.

    The counter petition was not legally binding.

    There is legal precedent for this in Ontario, where the courts ruled that the CFS could not deny Guelph a referendum, even though there was a counter petition there just like the one here.

    The requisite number of signatures were collected calling for a referendum, and because of this, a referendum must be called. Those are the rules of the game, whether or not the CFS likes it. Even if we assume that 90% of students on campus want to stay in the CFS, the 10% who called for a question on continued membership have the right to find that out by means of a referendum. The bylaws say so.

    Also, the counter petition had more time to collect signatures than the original petition did, since it wasn't bound by a deadline.

    A referendum is the only way we can have a fair, democratic decision, since only then will both sides be allowed to campaign and start informing the public (why we should stay and why we should leave). Currently, the no side cannot campaign because that would violate pre-campaigning rules.

    The yes side, however, can campaign under label membership education to avoid that violation.

    Clever, eh?

  • carren April 14, 2010, 2:17 p.m.

    Is the incoming Director of Finance saying he wants to use Students' money to fight a legal battle in court??

    I am completely against that. If he wants to go to court over this, he should use his own money.

  • carren April 14, 2010, 2:17 p.m.

    Is the incoming Director of Finance saying he wants to use Students' money to fight a legal battle in court??

    I am completely against that. If he wants to go to court over this, he should use his own money.

  • @ carren April 14, 2010, 3:37 p.m.

    The UVSS actually has a legal budget set aside each year for use in situations like this. The money is already put aside, as it is every year, and can only be used for legal matters such as this.

    The CFS is trying deny us our right to a referendum because they're scared of losing our student fees. Do you really think we should just roll over and be OK with that? It's about as acceptable as would be to let the federal govt never call an election because the party in power is scared it'll lose seats.

  • @ carren April 14, 2010, 3:37 p.m.

    The UVSS actually has a legal budget set aside each year for use in situations like this. The money is already put aside, as it is every year, and can only be used for legal matters such as this.

    The CFS is trying deny us our right to a referendum because they're scared of losing our student fees. Do you really think we should just roll over and be OK with that? It's about as acceptable as would be to let the federal govt never call an election because the party in power is scared it'll lose seats.

  • Lisa April 14, 2010, 10:21 p.m.

    Carren,

    The UVSS bylaws state that a referendum is initiated by a petition with signatures from 10% of the membership. As 11.4% of students signed the petition, the Director of Finance-elect and the rest of the future board have an obligation to act on this petition. It's not their fault that the CFS is trying to put up roadblocks.

  • Lisa April 14, 2010, 10:21 p.m.

    Carren,

    The UVSS bylaws state that a referendum is initiated by a petition with signatures from 10% of the membership. As 11.4% of students signed the petition, the Director of Finance-elect and the rest of the future board have an obligation to act on this petition. It's not their fault that the CFS is trying to put up roadblocks.

  • tim April 15, 2010, 2:42 a.m.

    I'm still confused as to why commentators are still saying 11.4% of students signed a petition when hundreds of students signed another petition asking their name to be removed.

    Personally i've been misled into signing petitions i didn't agree with. I've then gone out of my way to get my name removed. I would be appalled if my efforts to have my name stricken were not respected.

    We also need to respect that the counter petition collected more signatures in less time.

  • tim April 15, 2010, 2:42 a.m.

    I'm still confused as to why commentators are still saying 11.4% of students signed a petition when hundreds of students signed another petition asking their name to be removed.

    Personally i've been misled into signing petitions i didn't agree with. I've then gone out of my way to get my name removed. I would be appalled if my efforts to have my name stricken were not respected.

    We also need to respect that the counter petition collected more signatures in less time.

  • TDawg April 15, 2010, 3:33 a.m.

    The counter petition has already been ruled illegal and invalid in Ontario by the Ontario Superior Court (after the CFS already tried to pull the same stunt at Guelph).

    It's only a matter of time before the same ruling is handed down here.

  • TDawg April 15, 2010, 3:33 a.m.

    The counter petition has already been ruled illegal and invalid in Ontario by the Ontario Superior Court (after the CFS already tried to pull the same stunt at Guelph).

    It's only a matter of time before the same ruling is handed down here.

  • TDawg April 15, 2010, 3:40 a.m.

    P.S. to Jess:

    I'm not really informed about UVSS finance but I don't think this is the case

    Christ, really? Are you serious?

    No offence, but it's not about what you think!! I'm SO sick and tired of all these pro-CFS people, or people who wade into the debate midstream, that feign ignorance or are actually just goddamn blind and ill-equipped to know what's really going on.

    If you took the time to do your homework on this issue, you'd probably be on the anti-CFS side by the end of it once you learned about all the shit they pull (or maybe you just choose to be ignorant about the CFS dictatorship because you believe in their forged record on post-secondary education and buy into all their vague buzzword promises?)

    You can't even come up with a proper argument to counter what everyone else is saying then you're wasting everyone else's time.

    Inform yourself for your own sake, or do everyone a favour and stay out of the debate.

  • TDawg April 15, 2010, 3:40 a.m.

    P.S. to Jess:

    I'm not really informed about UVSS finance but I don't think this is the case

    Christ, really? Are you serious?

    No offence, but it's not about what you think!! I'm SO sick and tired of all these pro-CFS people, or people who wade into the debate midstream, that feign ignorance or are actually just goddamn blind and ill-equipped to know what's really going on.

    If you took the time to do your homework on this issue, you'd probably be on the anti-CFS side by the end of it once you learned about all the shit they pull (or maybe you just choose to be ignorant about the CFS dictatorship because you believe in their forged record on post-secondary education and buy into all their vague buzzword promises?)

    You can't even come up with a proper argument to counter what everyone else is saying then you're wasting everyone else's time.

    Inform yourself for your own sake, or do everyone a favour and stay out of the debate.

  • TDawg April 15, 2010, 3:46 a.m.

    P.P.S. at everyone else, let's count the number of typical CFS-style phrases she's used in her comments so far.

    negative smear campaign to work pitting students against students

    this is not a neutral democratic exercise

    it is harmful to the strength of the student body collective

    you are clearly misrepresenting the counter petition

    i think you are misrepresenting this issue

    CFS fees are small potatoes

    Sounds very much to me like the usual babble.

  • TDawg April 15, 2010, 3:46 a.m.

    P.P.S. at everyone else, let's count the number of typical CFS-style phrases she's used in her comments so far.

    negative smear campaign to work pitting students against students

    this is not a neutral democratic exercise

    it is harmful to the strength of the student body collective

    you are clearly misrepresenting the counter petition

    i think you are misrepresenting this issue

    CFS fees are small potatoes

    Sounds very much to me like the usual babble.

  • @ Tim April 15, 2010, 7:39 a.m.

    Tim other comenters have answered your question/comment:

    re: Personally i've been misled into signing petitions i didn't agree with. I've then gone out of my way to get my name removed. I would be appalled if my efforts to have my name stricken were not respected.

    `few students take the time to fully read what a petition they are signing entails. They assume the petitioner is being truthful about the full contents of the petition. The primary time to get signatures are while students are going in between classes, often n a hurry.

    The petitioners for the counter petition told students that they were supporting lower tuition or supporting better transit while never mentioning that their names were also being removed from the referendum petition.`-also @jess

    Which side was really misleading students? A lot of students didn't realize that signing the counter-petition meant they were removing their names from the referendum petition.

    re: We also need to respect that the counter petition collected more signatures in less time.

    This is false. the counter petition had more time to collect signatures than the original petition did, since it wasn't bound by a deadline.-Tori

  • @ Tim April 15, 2010, 7:39 a.m.

    Tim other comenters have answered your question/comment:

    re: Personally i've been misled into signing petitions i didn't agree with. I've then gone out of my way to get my name removed. I would be appalled if my efforts to have my name stricken were not respected.

    `few students take the time to fully read what a petition they are signing entails. They assume the petitioner is being truthful about the full contents of the petition. The primary time to get signatures are while students are going in between classes, often n a hurry.

    The petitioners for the counter petition told students that they were supporting lower tuition or supporting better transit while never mentioning that their names were also being removed from the referendum petition.`-also @jess

    Which side was really misleading students? A lot of students didn't realize that signing the counter-petition meant they were removing their names from the referendum petition.

    re: We also need to respect that the counter petition collected more signatures in less time.

    This is false. the counter petition had more time to collect signatures than the original petition did, since it wasn't bound by a deadline.-Tori

 

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